Go-to-market and How to Sell an Assumed Breach Offering

Okay, welcome back everybody. We are in session two of day two, joined with Gary Pika. Matt Solomon, Mike Beard. I'll do the intros shortly and, and, uh, and talk about the session once Gary pulls it on up. But again, just a few things. Uh, in terms of housekeeping, um, once Gary kicks things off, I'll be off camera, but I will be here. I'll be looking for questions, pop 'em in to ask a question. Keep the chat lively as always. Um, Gary, any other things before we kick it off here?

No, just before we, we launch it, if you are a True Methods member, um, this will be part of our, um, training portal. So they'll be able to, they'll be able to get to it there. Everybody else will, you know, get, you'll also get a link. Okay. Fantastic. And Matt, VP of Sales at Ideation. I, I, Uh, so business development, Vice President of Business Development, uh, started at ID agent. So I was the first employee at ID agent, um, with Kevin Lancaster, uh, as the CEO.

But I've now become Vice President of business development at Kaseya, so representing all of their different business units. So I, I switched shirts depending on the, on the day and that. Okay. Fair enough. All right. So Gary, um, do you have a slide to kick kick us off? No, we we're not gonna, we, we don't need no slides. We don't Need no thinking slides. Alright. So, um, let me just introduce our panel and our topic.

We are gonna look at taking your cyber resilience and all the things we've done so far, uh, in this two day shop, uh, in a go-to market format. And, um, with us today, the CEO of true Methods, Gary Pika, uh, the VP of Business Development for all of Kaseya, Matt Solomon, and the CSO of Marco Technologies. Mike Regard. Thanks all for joining us. And Gary, let me let you take it off over From us. Awesome. Thanks Andrew. Yeah, sure. Yeah, so Mike's so secure. He has a giant safe behind him.

Yeah, I just, I just realized I've got some liquid gold sitting on top of it too. I see a box of Amil in the background, but, oh, that, that's awesome. So, uh, here's what I wanna do today. Um, we're gonna spend a couple minutes just summarizing the landscape that MSPs, uh, are in, because I think it's relevant. It's, it's relevant to what they need to do. And then we're gonna talk about talking to customers. 'cause we gotta get them to finance all the things that we need to do.

If you listen to our security track, I mean, it's obvious that, um, we're responsible for so much more than we used to be. And that takes tools, it takes time, it takes process, it takes people. And so that has to translate, you know, into the offering. And for that to happen, we need to be able to talk to our customers. Then we'll go to go to market. We'll talk about, um, some lead generation, uh, how that works. And then we'll talk about the prospect conversation.

So, we'll, we'll cover the whole, uh, we'll cover the whole gamut. So, uh, I don't think we gotta spend too much time on this, but, um, is it fair to say it's understatement to say that the quantity and the quality, uh, of attacks guys, um, has ramped up significantly in the past 12 months? Yeah, for sure. I, I think, uh, it doesn't take a lot listening to Chris talk that we know ransomware. It just, it continues to be significant.

And I, I, you know, we did a lot of things two or three years ago as we talked through in the last session to, to really, I think, evolve relatively recently. But Ransomware's continued to evolve with us. Exfiltration really wasn't a thing 18 months ago. Right now, it's in every situation. Right. And that's, uh, an unfortunate nature of the business. I, I think, uh, phishing campaigns continue to be ridiculously successful.

This corporate account takeover business email compromise is right there with it. We've definitely seen an evolution there as well. Yeah. And, and Matt, how many, you know, obviously you're in the security business, right? Um, but how many of your conversations with partners revolve around actual incidents that have happened to them or someone they know, or a customer or a friend? Uh, I mean, I would say probably a hundred percent. 'cause yeah, we just, it's just natural.

We're talking security generally. We're talking sales and security, right? And so naturally it just, they, they always have an example of a story that comes up and yeah, I mean, I, I know, I mean, some stats have probably already been thrown out, but I mean, you know, and there's different reports, but you know, in general, they've, they've said like phishing has increased like 600% since covid in the sophistication level.

I mean, of these phishing emails, like I, I, I do get 'em sent some to me. Sometimes people like point them out to me and they're just, they're so high level and they pivoted so fast, you know, I mean, they had, they had like a week where they took off too because they not took off, but like, they were reacting to the market as well. Um, but, you know, there were so many like workplace policy emails going out. So they take full advantage of that.

And, you know, he mentioned, uh, you know, ransomware as a service, and I know, or, or ransomware, and I know ransomware as a service isn't necessarily new, but unless you've actually seen like, some of the screenshots, I don't know if you people ever, if, if everybody realizes like it's being run like a real channel program. I mean, down to like sales enablement, um, and just automation. It, it, it's, it's fascinating.

See, Distribution, sales enablement, uh, you know, um, Customer service levels You can reach in terms of the more you generate, right, the more percentage you get. So, yeah, it's definitely, and they have bigger marketing budgets than, than we do. Yeah. And then there was this recent one thing where, and I don't, I don't know all the levels of it, but essentially it was like auto, uh, automating phishing kits essentially.

So like, it, it was like smart enough to re react to what you're clicking on and create landing pages on the fly. Um, so it's just taking information that that's already out there and it's automating it, so there's less work for the hacker actually to do. Um, and they can really land and expand a lot easier with Phish AI hacking. Yeah, Pretty much. So just think about this, right? For our customers, like the SMBs, right? The MSP's customers think about what's changed.

Think about the accelerated cloud adoption because of the pandemic. Um, think about the fact that they're, this happens right in the middle of their tech revolution, right? Where they're becoming more tech dependent. They're spending more money on technology as a percentage of revenue each year. And that's going to continue for at least the next five years. Um, they have growing compliance requirements. Uh, there's changes in cybersecurity requirements.

So all of these things have already changed for everyone, for every MSP customer, for every SMB. So, as I like to say, their costs have already changed. People say, well, how during a pandemic do I go and tell a customer they have to spend more, their costs have already changed. You just need to translate that to them. And so what this means for MSPs is MSPs, it's a lot higher rate of change that they need to go through than they have in the past. They have more risk. We see churn increasing.

For the first time that I'd been in this business, you're seeing churn increase. Um, there's more dramatic stratification between the top of the market of MSPs and the bottom half of the market. There's a bigger entrance barrier to get into this because of all the requirements. Um, and scale, you know, is more of a competitive advantage. So all these things have changed for SMBs. All these things have changed. And so for MSPs to respond, they need to become more cyber aware.

They need to become more standards driven. They need to take what we have been talking about, which is that assumed breach mentality and using that as the basis, right, for the conversations, um, that they're having with customers and, and that they're having with, with, with prospects.

So, uh, again, uh, Mike, we brought up on the, on the, uh, cyber call a lot recently, the, this, uh, concept of assumed breach mentality, but it, it is a different way o of talking about cybersecurity than we had in the past, which was all about protection. Yeah, that's right.

Um, I I think it's, I if we peel it back, it's really understanding that, you know, everybody knows it's not if, but when I, I think it really does pivot, like we talked about on the cyber call, that there's starting to become this fear that well, nobody can defend against it. So how can I be expected to defend against it as well? Right? Right.

So I think that's where stripping the fear and certainty and doubt out is more important now than ever having a factual based conversation with clients, helping them understand what their actual risk is. And one of the things we've talked about in so many different sessions in the last month is there are plans to help do this implementation group one from our friends at CIS is a great roadmap to defend against those top five threats.

And I think that's a good starting place for many organizations. Incorporate that into that cyber insurance conversation that we just talked about. That's again, gonna be kind of a baseline barrier. If your client can't get cyber insurance, ask if they've got it. I think that's a perfect way to kick the conversation off, right? If they can't get it, that tells you, all right, here's where we need to start.

You said it earlier, I probably wouldn't wanna bring them on as a managed client until they get to that minimum level of standards. Yeah. And just it really is where we're at. Yeah, absolutely. And, and, and if it doesn't, um, and also if they have that cyber insurance with prospects, we'll talk about, um, if they realize there are certain things that have to happen for it to pay right. For it to actually, for it to actually fund, uh, and the kind of questions that they're gonna be Yeah. Yeah.

Because I, I was gonna add, you know, if you're not showing that you're doing security awareness training, you know, I, I'd say some, in some cases, good luck getting a cyber insurance company to payout. Yeah. I mean, that is the first thing they're gonna be looking to see if you're doing phishing simulation, cybersecurity awareness training, base level things, multifactor authentication.

And you know what, um, I had mentioned this, but we, uh, on, on a couple of the, of the cyber calls we've done twice, we've done a survey asking people, how many of you have had a conversation about cyber assurance with a hundred percent of your customers? And like, huge majority said, said no.

So that kind of level sets where we are, the risk, but also what we're gonna talk about today from a sales situation, this is also the opportunity because when you get in front of prospects and you start answering questions, you are gonna uncover you, you're gonna uncover some risks that you're gonna be able to show them in a different kind of way. That's why churn is up for MSPs. And, and it's a zero sum game. Like people are leaving one Ms. P and going to another.

So churn is not bad unless it's happening to you, right? When you're creating it, uh, for other people, then we like churn, right? That's right. Uh, that's build that's building our business. So, um, one thing I wanna touch on. Um, we don't have time to talk about packaging and pricing today, but obviously we're just gonna work under the, we have other, um, uh, videos on that.

But obviously we're working under the assumption that everyone needs to be charging more today than they were a year ago, or their customers aren't secure and they're probably not secure. So we'll work under that fact that we all gotta be able to, um, uh, charge more. So here's what I wanna do. I wanna get into the customer conversation and to set the, set the stage for that one, you gotta review your customer base.

Like if you haven't done this before, and I'm not just saying how profitable they are or what they spend with you, um, that's important. Do they have the right offering at the right price? So that's important, but, you know, what are their compliance requirements? Um, do we have a plan for each of these customers? Have we talked about incident response? Uh, have your, has your V CIOs educated them on the cybersecurity journey? Are we using standards to make cybersecurity real?

So you need to look at it. And I, and what came up, uh, as we talked about incident response is, and compliance, you not only have to know your customers, but you gotta be having a conversation about who their customers are at this point, Matt, that's not something we ever had to do in the past. No, no. It's, it's, but it, it, and I think that can make it relatable. 'cause then they're not just thinking about themselves. They're, they're thinking about their customers.

And, um, you know, the number one is having these conversations is absolutely critical. I know a lot of MSPs struggle with content for QBR and, and, and what to go over. I think those are great opportunities. I mean, we had this, um, this one MSP partner of ours, um, and this kind of gets to this, the idea of setting the stage for the costs are going up because the threats are, are constantly changing. You know, I thought like dark web monitoring wasn't a thing three years ago.

Now it's part of most MSP's security stacks. Um, so setting the stage, we had a partner go in to his qbr as he said, this is where we're at. We're coming out with two security stacks, and they're mandatory. And you know, this is where we're going. And I'm not telling you that the price is gonna stay the same. It's going to most likely increase because of, of the threat landscape.

And I mean, he added 18,000 in monthly reoccurring revenue from his own customer base just by having upfront conversations. And then you of course then use, he uses that now for the baseline for if he's going out and acquiring new customers, he's not taking them on if they're not gonna take cybersecurity seriously. 'cause it's just too much risk, right. For an MSP now. Yeah. It, it makes qualifying when we get to the, uh, the new client acquisition piece. We'll, we'll, we'll visit that.

How I feel like, you know, I was, I, I pride myself when I had my MSP been able to qualify people in about 10 minutes, but I think you can do it in five minutes now, right? You can do it, you can do it much sooner. Mike, let me ask you this, and we'll talk about what the conversation sounds like. But in the, for at Marco, I'm guessing if you look back a couple years, your price is different, right? And so, so how, initially that's a hard process to start, right? To be able to go out.

Because our initial thing is people ask me, well, how do you raise prices on your customer? And I always say, you don't, you, you, you, you raise value. And so tell me internally what you've had to go through to be able to, to, to get good at that with your customer base. Yeah. A lot of education. Um, that, that's really what it comes down to. 'cause you're right, we, we did change about, yeah, it's probably 18 months ago now.

We added to where we require every managed client now to have a SIM solution, we require, we required the, like no before type training or something similar to that before, but we now require phishing campaigns as well. Um, so we added some of those core common elements as we went forward. And, and obviously that does cause a, cause a price change. Yeah. So now you gotta educate your reps how to talk about the value with that.

And it, it really, for us, turned into, we had to take a step back and educate our reps on really what cybersecurity is. We had to pick a framework. We did pick a framework. We started educating on that roadmap. You know, how do you talk a framework, change your position, change your mindset, really became part of the methodology as well. You're not a technology solution provider when you go into an organization. Your value as a, as a sales person is keeping them out of the news, right?

When you go in with that mindset, with my job is to make sure you don't end up in the news. Yep. It's amazing what that does. The, the sales folks that pick that mindset up will accelerate, they'll take off the ones that typically that struggle with that. That's where you're gonna have challenges. That's where it turns into, well, we gotta sell you more tools. Well, why? I don't know, but we gotta do it. Right? Um, so, so it really does go back to education.

I think that's first and foremost the most important thing. And it comes back to, again, educating what are those common risks? Really? What are the top things that we're doing? Why are we requiring these additional tools? Because as grandma master Chris said in previous sessions, logging is critical when something does happen. That's a required element. We have to have that. We know your users are gonna click stuff. And by the way, we can prove it.

'cause when we last assessed you, we did a Phish campaign and you had 25% click rate kind of a thing. So I, I think changing the methodology assessments was one of the tools that we did in that as well, right? So we started, we added cybersecurity things into our assessment. It started out with a simple questionnaire. We're gonna ask you 15 to 25 questions. We're gonna kind of qualify you, give you a, give you a target score. I think everybody's using products to do this.

Nowadays we're gonna do that, and then we're going to give you a roadmap, right? We're gonna build that journey forward you and take you forward. So it a lot of different aspects to it. But the one I would take away is you've gotta educate. I tend to think the folks that join these calls are really smart. They've got a desire to learn security, take this back to your organizations and help them figure out, um, you know, grow it. It's share the knowledge. Yeah. Yeah.

So Matt, you gave that example, and I can give many more of MSPs this year have been able to do the same thing. But there's two things, right? They need to educate them on the threat landscape and then the journey. And I love using that word journey, right? Because, um, you kind of alluded to this. They're say, oh, are you gonna come back and raise my price again? Yeah, absolutely. Mm-Hmm. Here, here's what it is.

So maybe talk to that a little bit about, um, you know, the partners you work with, how they need to beat this drum consistently with customers quarter after quarter. Yeah. I mean, I thought there was some excellent points brought up. I mean, making it real to your customers, right? Showing them examples of small businesses being exposed through ransomware, through phishing attacks. You know, you don't need to share.

I mean, you could have conversation about the Marriott breach, but it's not gonna resonate down to their level. And we actually had this, um, kind of cybersecurity expert come on, uh, one of our thought leadership events. And I thought she brought up a really interesting point. And this again, goes again completely with the educational track, which is, you know, a common phrase you hear is that the end user, you know, the employee is the weakest link.

And that might be true, and we might know that. And as an owner, they might know that. But that can't be the message to your employees that you are the weakest link. And so, um, you know, showing these reports is extremely powerful. Like these phishing simulations, you see the reports, but instead, you know, as an owner of a business, you need to focus on the ones that are, that are clicking and exposing data.

But the message to the group should focus on the 95% of the people who are doing it correctly and see if you can create kind of a culture and, and get people on board to, to follow what the other 95% doing, not the 5%. So it's kind of shifting the mentality a little bit, and it's, it's a different way of thinking. Um, but I think it's important. But those reports in terms of getting, you know, getting people to understand the risk.

I mean, I don't, there's, there's very few things that is powerful, you know, is comp showing somebody's compromise credentials on the dark web, and of showing the results of a phishing simulation. And we take it one step further, and again, I don't, I don't care if you use another, uh, a competitor or not, but we show the click rates, but we also allow them to submit credentials.

Now, we don't store the data, but you imagine you walk into your customer and you say, Hey, 95% of, or 90% of the employees clicked on the email, and x percentage of them, 50% of them submitted their credentials. I mean, that, that really makes the conversation pretty real quickly. Yeah, abso absolutely.

And so what I always tell people is, you know, you go to customers, you talk about the landscape, um, which by the way, it's part of your job if you're an owner, if you're A-V-C-I-O, uh, if you're a salesperson, it's your job to stay up on what's happening in the landscape. So, uh, ID agent, I, I get the weakened breach, uh, I'm on Ms. SP alert and five other things that I get each week that I, I can scan all five or six things in, you know, less than an hour a week.

But I can translate it, I translate it to my team, I translate it to my customers. So one, you have to be educated and you have to be able to keep people up to date on that landscape. And then the response and how it fits in to your framework, how you respond to it, what's involved with, you know, tools, labor process roles and, and those kind of things.

And I would say if your customer is hesitant, you, you have to take it that the only reason why they wouldn't invest in the right things, allowing you to do the right things, is you haven't translated their risk. Like, that's as much on you as I, I blame myself before I blame, uh, the customer. And one thing is it's our business, but it's their business that conversation's more important to them than it is to us.

And I don't know, Mike, and I think it, it's, especially if you have V CIOs or salespeople, getting them to think in that way is not always easy. Like, Hey, look, this conversation's more important to your customer than it is to us. Yeah. I, I think Matt hit it with, it's a culture and it's a mine, right? It's a one, you have to have a good security culture in your own organization as a service provider in order for your VCIO VCs, those to be effective in what they do. Yep.

If you're not effective internally, don't expect them to be. The second thing, from an education perspective, and I, I think I talked about this on, on the cyber call last year, but, uh, um, I, to be frank, I took the format of the cyber call and, and we do something internally now that's the, we educate our teams based on some of the things I'm getting from the cyber call from M-S-S-P-L or from all the different sources out there.

You hit it, Gary, you gotta take that information, spend the hour, make it current, make it relevant, and then don't be afraid to take that out to customers as well. Right? And that's a, there's a lot of formats to do that. The VCIO vcso is, they have to be doing that, but open it up, take that same educational format out to the masses as well. That's just one more avenue to keep that culture going, to keep that message going.

'cause what you'll find is you're gonna get a certain percentage of your customers that come along, and they're gonna start sharing that story for you as well. Right? They're gonna become ambassadors of that security mindset, that security culture on, on your behalf. Yeah. Super important. Uh, Matt, I know you're huge on all different types of ways of educating customers and prospects. Maybe just talk about that for a minute.

I know, you know, webinars, um, blogs, emails, like, we'll, we'll talk about LinkedIn separately, the medium by which, you know, when we get to NCA, but like in talking about your customer base, and then we'll relate the same things to, to, you know, to prospects. But just talk a little about that. 'cause I know you spend a lot of time on it. Yeah, I mean, and, and we had to reinvent how we communicate, obviously in the covid times, just like everybody else.

I mean, I, I would spend, I normally, I'm in front of MSPs 50 times a year at different events. Um, so we really had to shift and, and really moved into more, uh, thought leadership. But yeah, I mean, webinars are always obviously an easy way to, to deliver education. But it's definitely important to come up with new, uh, I guess ways to keep the audience engaged, whether that's, you know, through doing polls. I mean, Crowdcast, this is a great way, this is easy, right?

'cause you can actually pull people up and actually would encourage that. I mean, you could sort of do that through Zoom, maybe, potentially. But, um, you know, it's, it's fun to engage and see people's chat. Like, I mean, I gave, I shared that example and then, you know, Ben chimed in and said he did that, you know, the phishing simulation and 16, uh, people at a law firm, you know, submitted their credentials, right?

So, you know, but you know, a lot of it's, uh, you know, getting yourself out there, putting your voice in front of your audience, um, you know, and finding, trying to, I think it's super important to understand how your audience is taking in information. Um, you know, I guess I, I, I know where, I don't wanna dive into LinkedIn too much 'cause I know we're gonna go there. Yeah, yeah, Yeah. Well, I wanna, I wanna talk about that separately because Yeah, yeah. I, I love your approach with it.

Yeah. But, you know, like, see it, if your audience, you have to know where your audience is, number one. Um, you know, do I necessarily wanna be connected to every MSP on Facebook from my personal account? Not initially I didn't. But that's where the MSPs are. There's a ton on Facebook. So at some point, I just had no choice and that I had to dive into that.

So you, you know, figure out where, that's probably one of the most important things I would say, is figure out where your audience is, how they take in information. You know, with, if you do a blog, I would strongly consider, um, you know, I, I put out blogs and I look at the readership and it's honestly, it's like nothing. It doesn't stop me from continuing to do blogs 'cause you just never know.

But what I started to do is I would do a blog in the morning and I'd come back and do a video recap, like a minute, like a minute recap of the blog. And I get so much more traction on the video than I, even, than I did with the blog. So it's finding different medians, uh, to, to get the word out with, with your customers and, and new, new prospects. Yeah. ab absolutely.

So I, I think what we can say, uh, and we'll talk about the exact conversation, but, um, at this point, I think you have to look at your customer base and you gotta make, and you have to think about what we're talking about. And you gotta make a decision about how you're gonna proceed. Are you going to continue to, to nibble away and, you know, and it's gonna impact your margins and where you are and what you can afford to innovate in terms of security?

Or are you going to make a plan and go out and listen? Most of the MSPs I work with, they've done it over one or two quarters. That's it, right? They, they are visiting most customers at least once a quarter, and they put into their plan, uh, what that looked like. And they just all just made a decision to do business with us. This is how it looked.

Now, you can always get a couple that maybe based on your business, you can decide in the short term to back off of that, you know, in the short term. But what, what that decision has done for people is it's changed the conversation when there's no plan B, you can only present plan A. And customers hear it, they understand it, they see the sincerity, and they're more likely to, so, uh, you know, getting in front of a customer, um, you know, and, and saying to 'em, Hey, here's what changed.

Here's how we responded. Look, you're paying us $3,000 a month now, it's gonna be 3,700. And, and wait and get that response and then come back and say like, wow, well, you know, we have a lot of stuff going on in our business. I got you. I can't make it optional. Let me tell you why. And it's that conversation of why their costs have already changed. And you have to keep telling them that so that they feel it and understand it.

And Mike, for what you guys do and the kind of customers average customer you deal with, uh, you know, you're a very small, your, your bill to them every month is a very small percentage of all the bills they pay, right? They pay hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars of bills, and your bills only thousands. They don't always see it that way unless you tell 'em, right? Yes. Struggling on the mute button. Yeah. That, that's exactly right.

That's, um, it's, it's knowing who cares about that bill, I think more important than anything, right? The, the owner, at the end of the day, you got it. You just, you gotta be in front of 'em and, and continue that thing on here's what we're doing, here's why we're moving the needle. And then I think that reporting aspect, again, I'm gonna hit that, that's important, right?

The needle is gonna go, we're gonna move the needle up in terms of what your invoice is gonna be, but we're also gonna give you a few more things back to show you that, hey, we're watching, we're watching more of your stuff. When we implemented a SIM solution, for example, and mandated that across the board, guess what? We now give you some reports to show some of the things that, that's showing as well.

And, and that gives just that extra safety net of, hey, okay, you actually are watching more. You're doing more. And in a QBR, it's a two minute conversation. Yeah, right? It's amazing what two minutes can do to put that at ease. Yeah. So don't overthink it. Yeah, absolutely. Um, so Matt, I, uh, I want to get your opinion on this. I have seen MSPs go out and do this in the way that I have said, which is, look, this is it. I can't make it optional.

Maybe they'll do it for free for a couple months. For those people that push back. And I've seen others that have said, if you don't do it, you gotta sign some opt out. And they've gotten ver like, not great results. Have you seen the same thing? And and what do you think it is? Is it just that mentality because they're having the same conversation, it's just the way they're presenting it in the conviction? Yeah, so I Can, I can, I can only speak from, you know, the MSPs that in my experience.

So I, I can tell you Id agent, like we as all a group, we were talking about this decline of service concept really early on, I think in, in, in the spectrum of things. And, um, we definitely got a lot of like, pushback from the MSP community we were bringing up. They're like, uh, especially in Europe, they were like, no way we're doing that. Um, but um, we would start to get, you know, story after story would trickle in of an MSP doing it, and they didn't have any issues with it.

And, um, you know, again, they started off, some of them started off with conversations where they were just making dark web monitoring a mandatory service. I mean, we had, the first success story I remember hearing from was an Australian MSP. He was charging $99. He said, you know, he did an educational webinar. He said, you now understand, hopefully you understand why this is going to be mandatory.

You know, and I know you, we don't necessarily teach to, to do single line item, but just in this case, that was the example. He sent it to 72 of his customers and 60 of 'em agreed upfront on the terms. And you made $72,000 just from dark web monitoring. Right? But then we saw the evolution of it not just being one product, but but the entire stack. It was early on, right? Yeah. Yeah. It was early on. But, um, but The psychology is the same, right? It, that example is a product.

Now we're going back with bundles, but that psychology is the same, right? Yeah. I mean, in a big part of it's just, it's confidence and it's a lot of the things we talked about. I mean, you know, making sure you're showing the value, showing how you're differentiating yourselves, you know, from others. I mean, I, you know, I, I think it's pretty obvious in 2021, the MSPs that are security centric are gonna be the ones leading the pack. I mean v you know, VCIO.

Obviously that's, that can be a massive differentiator. You know, and I, I was thinking about this earlier when I was talking about thinking about talking points, but with the VCIO, I mean, I think you're making yourself so much stickier with something like that. And now I'm probably setting you up on a, on a Yeah. A tee box with, with this. But like, I just to have that, that that capability, uh, can you still hear me gay? I can hear you. I just can't, can't See you. Alright. Right.

I'll, I'll try to get back on my thing. Yeah. But to have that, that that person who you feel is part of your organization, I just think it makes you so much stickier. Yeah, absolutely. Uh, and Jason was asking about opt-outs. Like, you know, when something happens, you know, you know, does it, does it matter, uh, if you end up in front of a jury, uh, if you tell people, well, you got a sign here that says you don't accept my new security package. Uh, yeah.

And, and it's funny you get those objections, Mike, and I'm sure you got 'em early on, but once you established the fact of what's that, certain things are not optional. It's, isn't that funny how those objections seem to go away? You don't really deal with them anymore. They, for the most part, they do.

And, and I'll add a little bit of color on this because the, in some cases we still do opt out and, and it may not be my favorite thing, but, uh, I'll tell, I'll tell you the, the negative side to it is, first off, if they've got any kind of legal savviness to 'em at all, no business owner in their right mind should ever sign an opt out. 'cause now it's documented that they just made a really bad decision. That's really what it is. Yeah. So your attorneys hate it.

Um, to be frank, our attorneys hate it. It's, it's a tough thing. I, I think the approach of we're gonna do this, we're gonna require it, is a much easier conversation because once they've opted out of something, it's a domino thing. They're gonna continue to opt out because they know that works. Right? So be careful of the snowball effect that comes with that too. I just, I, I know it does work in some cases and and whatnot, but it, it limitations of liability.

And I think Jason hit it with, once you're in the mud, you're still in the mud. You can limit yourself out from a contractual standpoint. But I, I tell you what, the other customer in the community that you work with, when they talk to that owner that opted out and something bad happened, your reputation's still trash. I mean, it yeah, they don't, they don't know that. Well, they actually made a decision to opt out. And to be frank, you probably can't share that.

So it really can be reputation damaging, I think more so than anything. I think that's the biggest concern for us as an MSP, is what's our reputation risk in allowing folks to do that. And I think what it is, what I always try to tell our, our salespeople and our V CIOs in my MSPs is like, look, here's how I'm gonna sum it up. In most all other businesses, the motto is, the customer's always right. In our business, the customer's almost always wrong.

Challenger sale, the customer's almost always wrong. And guess what? You're the one who gets to tell 'em about this.

So it, it, it is when you switch that and you change that relationship from like a sales kind of relationship, whether you're A-V-C-I-O or a salesperson, uh, to one where you are just explaining to them the reality of things, and this is how it is and this is what you're willing to do or not do, and you feel so strongly about it, you know, you're gonna may lose some, some customers. And, and I think telling those stories even about like, Hey, can I tell you why I can't make this optional?

Let me tell you what's gonna happen when you get breached. Let me take it through what incident response look like. And then you take through the whole story. So now I'm in court trying to tell people to defend. 'cause I told you, if you signed a piece of paper, I could let you stay at risk. How do you think that's gonna go for both of us? That's right. Yeah. That's powerful stuff. Alright. I want to go on to new customer acquisition because this is the lifeblood of every business.

Never in the history of my 25 years in this business has adding new customers at the right price been more important. Scale right now allows us to have a better organization, uh, and be able to invest more to keep ourselves and our customers more secure. You owe it to your customers, uh, to be able to add new customers at a consistent basis.

So, um, first thing is obviously in sale, in any type of sales, you have to have a plan that includes the assumptions you're making, what's gonna be my close rate, uh, what activities do I need, what resources and the accountability around that. The next thing you wanna do is we're gonna talk about marketing and lead generation. We wanna be efficient. You don't need a lot of leads. You need some number of leads you determine that you can actually meet your assumptions on.

And so focusing on warm lead generation, first being a thought leader educator, a rainmaker is where everyone needs the start. All the other stuff that we'll talk about, okay. In terms of, you know, what you can do in marketing all come after that.

And so, um, I wanna start with, um, one warm lead generation source, which is LinkedIn and Matt, take a little, take a few minutes and explain a, how you use LinkedIn, but also how you've taught your partners to use LinkedIn in a really powerful way, uh, that they may not have thought of. Yeah, no, I mean, I, I love LinkedIn. It's definitely one of the biggest resources I use to get my voice out to the MSP community.

And I, and I believe that, that for any MSP, you know, owner on here, it should absolutely be part of your, your really your daily functions. Um, you know, I think when Covid first hit, you know, we started seeing people putting themselves out there more. Um, but then I also was having conversations with MSPs who aren't as comfortable and that's okay.

Not everybody's comfortable being in front of the screen, but, um, what was happening is the reaction was like, well, I'm starting to see everybody do it, so maybe I don't, you know, maybe I shouldn't because I'm just gonna be one of another people. But my, I guess my response to that is you can't let another MSP be the voice in your network. You know, you wanna be the thought leader. Um, you know, consistency as in any type of marketing activities is critical.

Um, you know, so I, I post twice a day on LinkedIn. Um, I try to mix up the, you know, the content. I try to do more videos. Um, and I, there's lots of different strategies around it. Um, the shorter the better. Uh, I try to, I tell my team, um, a minute to two minutes, like, and, and I think a, a really nice tip actually is doing subtitles. If, if you can, there's lots of different, um, video subtitle companies out there.

Um, because again, this gets back to how am I, how is the audience taking in the content? So I, I started realizing I read a lot of videos on LinkedIn that I just didn't, it just didn't occur to me. Like, if you're sitting somewhere and you can't listen to the audio, I have no problem reading a one minute video. Um, so it's, it's doing that, but it's establishing yourself as a thought leader and what you don't realize at the time.

Um, 'cause there's engagements on LinkedIn where it's like, you either, you know, you like it or your comment, and a lot of times you, you think about like, oh, did, maybe this post didn't do as well as I thought, but you just don't know who's watching because I mean, Gary, you might have seen 20 of my things and never commented or liked any of it. Yeah. Like your son comments and likes all my stuff. You don't, not so much.

But you know, no, but like, but you may have seen it and I may have had no clue you saw it. And I can, I'll, I'll start liking commenting, but I do, I do see them all. Yeah. But what, what ends up happening is somebody will eventually reach out to you and say, Hey, and I, I had an MSP, this is a perfect example. He didn't know that. He didn't even know this person.

They reached out to him and they said, I've been watching you post about you do these cybersecurity tips, you know, one minute tips once a week. And he is like, and, and I started following you. And just when the timing was right, which is a big part of, of this, he reached out to him 'cause he was a thought leader, um, in his space, or he created himself as a thought leader.

So, I mean, I could go on and on, but what I would tell people, you know, to, to someone one point of it up, it's, there's, if you're missing out an opportunity, if you think LinkedIn, um, is kind of this cesspool of salespeople just connecting and, and trying to sell you, because it, it is, there's a lot of that going on. Don't do that, But don't do that. Yeah. And you separate yourself from 95% of the people there.

And so you do, if done correctly, if you're connecting with people and only providing real value, it, it is like a home run. I mean, it can drive, you know, people think about like MSP doing a webinar and driving attendance. If you establish yourself as a thought leader, there's so many different ways. And you can reach out to me if you want to talk further. So many different ways to engage with your audience, to invite them to the webinars.

And of course that's when you can do your selling when they've engaged with you at a webinar or something like that. But there's, it, it opens up a lot of doors. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, one simple thing is you have customers not just those contacts, but the people that you know, that work for all of your customers. You, you wanna, you want to connect with as many of 'em as you can. They're, they're your customers. They're gonna connect with you.

One, you're helping educate them, but two, now all the people they're connected to every time they're gonna like or share, you're just gonna expand it and it's more credible coming from them even than it is for you. So, but consistency is the thing. And I, and I'll leave it with this on LinkedIn and um, uh, when, when I bought my second MSP and we needed deals, you know, we did three or four things, but one of them was 10 to 15 minutes on LinkedIn every day. That was the playbook.

And that along with a couple of other activities, you know, creates this, this, um, this warm lead, you know, kind of, uh, funnel that, um, you know, allows you to have the kind of close rates that you need. If everything you're doing is cold hold, especially if you're not already selling a lot, that means that you have some work to do on belief in sales process you need, which is a lot of MSPs. Uh, you need those. You really have to have those warm leads.

Mike, in terms of lead generation, what are some of the things, you know, to get new clients? What are some of the things that have had success, uh, in your world? Yeah, specific to more of the security track. I think honestly what Matt just talked about has been a big part of it, right?

The, the short 32nd videos on LinkedIn and just the, the secondary and third layer of context that that hits is pretty tremendous because what, the best example I've got on one is the, we posted an event, like I said, we took kind of the cyber cyber call approach, started doing 'em for clients. We noticed a trend all of a sudden, you know, we try to have good content, everybody does. And I think we have pretty thought provoking content in our regions. We had competitors jumping on, right?

That's interesting to see. And then we had quite a few net new prospects and we track that. And out of our net new prospects, what would happen is they join the first one, then they join the second one, then hey, wait, look, they're on the third one. And now they're trying to buy something, right? They're the first or second time they're not sold yet. But after a while they get the trend that, hey, you actually do know what you're talking about.

You're somebody that I want to associate myself with and that Matt hit it. That's exactly what it is. It's take that, continue to do that. I think webinars are a great way. Um, the other thing that we've done from a lead generation perspective is we also, I try to do those 30 to 62nd videos, post 'em on LinkedIn, and then we'll campaign 'em as well. We'll actually convert 'em, we'll email 'em out. We'll campaign 'em in different ways. That's been very effective too.

And the feedback we've had on those is phenomenal. And that's exactly what Matt said. It's amazing how people are very willing to watch a video and read what you're saying, but not read an email. Right? Yeah. We know that trend there. It's great. Well, That, and I was gonna say that's that. And that's something I've tasked, um, my business development team with, you know, we do, we do a thought leadership event and you know, those leads, they go to an SDR or an account manager.

And I said to my team, I said, actually, why don't you just connect with them or reach out to them through LinkedIn and you know, just thank them for comment. You don't, it's not, again, not sales pitch, but, you know, and the response is, is just so significantly higher. 'cause one, they, they established themselves as that thought leader from that event. Um, they're not getting an email from somebody they don't know. I mean, there's so many opportunities. Um, this is a real story.

We had an MSP who went to several of our thought leadership events just like an MSP can do as well. And same kind of story. We ended up getting into a conversation about diversity in the MSP space. It was kind of a side conversation. Long story short, it ended up in an over $800,000 deal. Um, for, for us. Uh, IK say it, but it was all from this thought leadership track and just being, uh, a voice in the network. Um, and you really can establish yourselves.

You get to a point where, and I've, I, this is something I really tried to curate. People come up to me at events or on virtual things and they're like, I, I, I haven't met you, but you seem like you're everywhere. And that's what I, that's what I was my goal. I wanted people to feel like I was everywhere because that gives off a perception that you are a thought leader in your space and that that's something ev any MSP can absolutely emulate.

Yeah, listen, and, and if you're a small business owner, an MSP business owner, right, like under $4 million shop and you can go a quarter without adding a new customer, what that means is you are not in the business community. 'cause if you are out in the business community in these ways and other ways, there's no way that can happen. Something's will come and trickle down to you at some point. Um, uh, Mike, you brought up one thing that went by quickly, but I wanna mention it.

'cause people don't, it's a little metric, it's huge. We track it at true methods, but MSP should be tracking this. One way to engage how you're doing, um, is new. You mentioned new ads, net new ads. So prospects you're adding to your CRM, um, each month that weren't in there. If you're not adding any, you're not. 'cause hey, a lot of that stuff's gonna happen. We put, you know, I blog, I do a lot of things.

Then eventually they hit the website and then eventually from there, then we have a bunch of stuff and they'll, they, they'll go ahead and, you know, put in their email address to, to get something. So, um, that's a, you know, Matt, I think that's a good gauge of, are you, are you out there, are you doing things and are you adding people, uh, to it?

'cause if you're not adding, you don't have a great list and then all the other things you want to do with outbound webinar invites, you know, out, you know, none of that stuff is gonna work if your list is crappy. And if it's stagnant, it's crappy. Yeah, absolutely. And I can tell you, I, I spend, I don't know, between 15 and 30 minutes every day, adding new connections through, through LinkedIn.

And what I was gonna say is, anytime you're in front of an audience, especially in this virtual environment, make sure you're plugging your, you know, I put it in, I did it while we were talking, I gave you as my LinkedIn, like I'm shameless about it because that's the, it's the, that's just such an easy way. And Mike, I I, I think you want, you wanted to chime in on the last part that we were talking? Yeah, I just had a comment. I I think Jason hit it, right.

One of the things that we do is we, we keep all of our, all of our cybersecurity related events, for the most part, they're vendor agnostic. They're product agnostic, right? Keep it real world problems. At the end of the day, it's all widgets. And people come into those events with preformed opinions. That's an easy way to turn off a prospect is when you're beating down a product that they maybe have some other preferred vendor in there.

If you can keep that product name out and just talk conceptual, here's what we're solving, that's always better. You can push your product. Once you've established that trust, don't try and push it until you've built it though. And Go ahead, Matt. No, I Say that that's such a important point and I just couldn't agree more.

Um, 'cause when I write a blog for ID agent, uh, for example, there's the blog version that goes on ID agent's page and it's way more focused on like our, like it'll make a point, but it'll be like, and with phishing se, you know, phishing simulations through Bull Fish id, but if you look at the way I write it through my, my, the one I post, I take out every mention of ID agent. I take out every mention of bull I Yeah.

Make it real world, because that, and then what ends up happening is then it becomes shareable content. So I, if I, if I give a message that's very ID agent centric, no MSSP sharing that with their end user. But when I share a, uh, a piece of content and say, this is why it's so important for you to reach out to an MSP to talk about phishing simulation, I'm not mentioning my product at all. That's when I get the re-shares.

And that's, and that only benefits the MS P because then they're, you know, allowing it to get the message to get out there and educate their customers. Yeah. And then the thing happens now, and it's a lot easier 'cause we're doing a lot more sales call. We get to the point where we actually get an FTAA first time appointment. Um, we can do a lot of 'em virtually now.

And I think even after the pandemic, we'll have that as a tool that we didn't have to have less qualified people to have more meetings that, to expand our geography. So you get into those questions and you get into that, those meetings. And I think now the sales process, uh, is more, is again, it's similar to the VCIO processes. We start to ask questions about their business and their technology. It, it's the way it always was.

We're trying to find pain, but now we have this security whole bundle that we have to go in and ask different kind of questions of people. And look, Mike, when you have the knowledge you do and the way you approach things, and you're teaching your, your salespeople those same kind of things, how much easier, or is it to uncover paying today and attach value to paying with a prospect than it was three years ago? A lot. There's no other way to say it. It's a lot easier. Um, hopeful. Yeah. A lot.

Hopefully it's something that everybody tracks. I I think that's the thing too, right? Is the look at calendar schedules, look at all of the attachments that come along with it. All of a sudden you hit it, people's time freeze up to where now I can focus on different things, driving net new plans, net new business. Yeah. Uh, with that, it's, it's a ca it's a cascading effect. It's Significant.

And, and, uh, Matt, I, I know that, you know, you have products that do pre-sales, you know, assessments, but I'm saying if I get in front of a customer and, and I'll, uh, I'll go ahead and when I post a video some questions, but, um, and I'm asking them a couple questions about their incident response plan. I'm asking them questions about their security policies, then I'm asking them who their current vendor is and, and what they spend per month. And I see how low it is.

Like, I already know I'm ready, I am ready to go. Like, and they're either gonna get that and understand it and attach a value, or if they're not, I'm disqualifying them quickly and moving on to the next thing. So, I don't know. Do you feel like this has clarified the sales process in, in your, in your mind, make it more black and white?

Yeah, I mean, I think it, it does, and I would, and this is a lesson I always remind myself is when you ask those questions, shut up and listen for a while because man, you can step on an answer that was gonna give you so much revealing information because you get so excited because they said something, they, you're like, oh, that's his pain. Let me jump in and give them the solution. But then you just, they may have told you three more pain points.

Um, I mean, I know we all know that, but it's always nice to just, I think, remind ourselves of that. Um, but, you know, yeah. I can tell you that's the number one mistake. People can't help selling right away. As soon as it, and as soon as the prospect knows you're gonna clob em over the head, every time they share something, they're gonna stop sharing It. Yep. No, exactly.

And, um, but yeah, and you, like you said, we, I mean, I do think, you know, obviously the tools that we, we provide do make some of these conversations like easier if you're showing a report. Yeah. Um, one real quick story I did wanna share, and it goes back to what I had shared earlier about the, um, the phishing simulation. And I had never thought about doing this for your current customer.

He was an MSP, got up at an event and shared this story, and it was like using it as a prospecting tool for his own client base, where he went into the a break fix customer of 10 years and said, look, we have to have a baseline understanding of the, the risk, you know, of the employees. I, I, I'm going to run a phishing simulation.

So he didn't really ask for permission, but he wouldn't have, obviously he wouldn't have done it if he didn't get permission, but, you know, he kind of went in with the confidence, like, we need to do this. I'm not charging you. This is just, and legitimately, 92% of the employees clicked on the email and 54% of the employees submitted their credentials. So he walked in with that report and the dark web data and walked out with a three year contract worth $284,000.

Now, it's not gonna always happen like that, but I'm just saying like as an MSP, you're, you are now empowered with some of the, some things that have actually taken place around security like, like never before. So it does really empower, I think I believe in, yeah, Especially a current customer when you're trying to convert your customer base. I would agree. Mike, in your sales process, um, do you use, in every case, do you use an assessment or not?

Or, or not In every case as part of the sales process, Uh, we're supposed to, for a managed offering, it's supposed to come attached with an assessment. Yeah. And do you charge for it? We do. And what do they normally run? Ballpark, average, Uh, 3,500 to 4,000, probably somewhere in There. Yeah. So once someone agrees to that, what do you think the close rate is of getting 'em onto an agreement? Uh, that's a metric. I don't know. It's, it's north of, I'd say 90%. Yeah, 80% maybe.

I mean, it's in 80, But you're saying that's really the sale. So 'cause order before they're gonna do that, you had to have uncovered pain. You've had to have them attach some value to it. Almost like if you have that close rate, when you get to that point, you're just validating what they've already agreed to That. That's exactly right.

And what I will tell you is the, the few that don't do it, where we make those, somebody in leadership makes an exception and they come on, those are the ones that you're, you're constantly doing letters of attestation to. You're constantly typically trying, like you, you're beating 'em tooth and nail for every single thing that follows. Yeah. Um, that there's definitely a correlation there. That's a really good observation.

Uh, Matt, what are you seeing in terms of like, you're, like the best partners you're working with? Like I, we, we had some people on, uh, earlier that, you know, they're now in the 200, 250, even $300 a a seat range. What are you seeing in terms of prices, you know, average seat prices compared to like two years ago? Um, I mean, dramatic increase. I, I don't know that I could speak to the exact seat price of the, of the entire security stack. Um, I don't always get into those conversations.

Um, but yeah, I mean, there's no question we're seeing a, a massive in, you know, um, increase in the asking price. You know, and I can only, you know, speak on from the ID agent perspective.

One of the things that's been interesting since covid is, um, you know, a lot of times we'd have, uh, partners sign up for X amount of domains where they'd, maybe they'd be using 10 of their 50 domains, but then when Covid hit, they started realizing with the remote work environment, they need to be monitoring all of their customers. So we saw just massive shifts, um, you know, in, in, uh, dark web monitoring and the phishing simulation in security awareness training.

And we had, by the way, just in 20, uh, 20, we had 267,000 people click, uh, clicked on emails through, through our MSP partners, so small businesses around the world, and 5% of the people gave up their credentials, which is a, you know, might not sound like a lot of people, but if you're a hundred person organization and 5% people are giving up their credentials Yeah. It, it, if it's the right people, it's a, it's a big problem. Yeah. Yeah. And it usually is the right people. Yeah.

Typically Is, is is the way, the way is the way that it works. So, yeah. So, uh, Andrew, you know, what we talked about really all aspects of customers, you know, and sales today, but I think what the message is, is that, um, security is good business, right? The command over it is good business. And I think there's a point that I've seen, and again, you know, we got a hun over 150 companies now in Pier, so I get to watch 'em pretty closely.

And what I've seen is that there is a, um, and I wanna see Mike, that kind of is a final question. I I, I just think that you get to a certain competency that's a tipping point where these conversations we're talking about with customers and prospects, you know, start to change and, and, and then it seems to really be an inflection point in the business. Is that what you found? Yeah, absolutely.

I think, um, it'd be, it'd be hard for me to put a, put a number on it, but I I, I would say like in CIS world, it'd be implementation group, probably two, right? You have to be somewhere north of one into that next technical layer. And once you're doing it internally, that cascades out. I, I think that's exactly it. Sales, yeah. 'cause it's your product. This is not, this is not a voodoo mind trick of, you know, do you have a script in sales that can sell more people? No.

Your product you're representing sincerely, and that product is, is what you're, is what you're talking about today. Same way with Matt, you know, with the tools that you guys help people with, when they get more than one, when they start to have, you know, 2, 3, 4 extra things in their security stack, you see the same thing. Like now they have that critical mass, they change the way they look at their approach and, and all of a sudden selling becomes easier.

Gary, I think really what it is too, I mean, if you think about it, it's two disciplined. I mean, if you could take an an SMB and say, Hey, let me take you on a journey, what an enterprise looks like, right? And so Neil did this right? For years, right? Security and it, there was no conflict, there was no issues, there really wasn't a need back in the eighties. And then, and as, as we evolve right through the nineties, you see this dichotomy that literally there's two distinct business units.

SMBs haven't evolved there. And, and I think really what you're talking to, and Mike said it differently here, Mike, but I think you're saying it the same way. IG one to IG two through CIS, you're starting to see that, you know, it is one thing, security is another thing. And you know, the, there's governance right between the two and, and it, it, it impacts business.

So, Gary, is that a, I'm not saying that's the most succinct way to, but, but you're charging for Multidisciplines now as an MSP. You never had to do that before. Yeah, well the thing is, we still have the old business. We do projects, we have support, you know, we're doing all the things we were doing with our stack before, like, like everything that we did to say we were an awesome MSP we're doing.

And then in addition to that, all the other things that, that we talked about in, in today and in this track. So yeah, that's what it is. So, um, this was really good. Matt, Mike, thank you so much, uh, for sharing your time. It went by so fast. And Matt, thanks for, um, telling me not to use slides. Yeah, no problem. Yeah. Gary, um, I'm gonna, you know, I know we have a, the technical session coming up, but I'm wondering if we could have one, one quick question for you. Yeah.

And then we'll, we'll kick it off. Um, for those of you out there, again, just real quick, you know, we'll, we'll, we'll end the session. I'll call you in for the next session. Um, it's gonna be awesome. Top 10 OAS web attacks. But Gary, the final question comes from Alex Alexander, and he says, you know, when you're adding new tools and, and you know, are, are, or, and or services you didn't say, but tools and services, do you approach it mid contract or only renewals? How do you look at it?

You know? Yeah, no, you can't wait until the contract is up. 'cause the risks don't wait until it's up. Okay? And so, and when you go back, this is why I like bundling. I, I, I, I want to go back and I want to be selling them solutions to the new risks that I'm explaining rather than the tools. Maybe behind the scenes, it's an idea agent or, you know, or, or another tool.

And also I'm going to, I'm gonna go and, and get a little bit more than I need knowing I'm gonna have to do some additional things. And one of the, I, I'm I'll, I'll close on this. One of the things that we're focusing on now, people will get a tool and if they're selling something outside of their bundle, they're looking at the markup based on what they pay, but they're not associating the labor and the cost of as they add these things to it.

And so you really gotta think through those things and then be confident and go get chunks from your customer and do it now this quarter if you need to. Don't with everybody, and don't be concerned about the, the the, when they have an agreement. Appreciate you answering that. Okay. So Matt Solomon, great to have you as a first timer here involved with the Cyber Call Cyber Nation, all this stuff that we do together. Thanks so much for, for coming on.

Uh, Mike Beard, as always, appreciate you, um, your, your thoughtfulness and, and willingness to share and, and Gary Pika awesome job as always, and, and the gang at True Methods. We really appreciate what you continually lend. Um, so I'm gonna end this. We'll pull over everybody. We'll get into a technical track with our good friends, Jason Slagel and Bryson Medlock. And, um, if you are not coming with us, we wish you guys all the best and thanks for hanging out with us for two days.

Um, alright, Gary, I'm gonna end it and we'll head on. Okay.